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Post by tak2811 on Jul 14, 2011 16:05:52 GMT -5
Sponsors are a good idea. That is why the WSL can give out so much with Miken and Combat as sponsors. The problem will be who is going to do the leg work? As of right now, I don't think that WI ASA committee doesn't view the lack of turnout as an issue.
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Post by southside on Jul 14, 2011 16:17:27 GMT -5
Of course they don't . . . Less teams=less work to host the tournament. . . .
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Post by sburgy4 on Jul 14, 2011 16:21:10 GMT -5
I wasn't just referring to Nsa. I have played 2 Isa tournaments down in Cystal lake that had 18 teams and 17 teams I believe each weekend. They have 20 teams for there Nsa C state this weekend it says on Serioussoftball.com.. I will be surprised if 8-10 show up in Wisconsin. Where else is Nsa played rather then Lumpys? I am curious, it is in the SE part of state there is no wonder you don't get teams driving 3-4 hours to come play. The talent is there is Wisconsin, but like I said there is no where to show it off. Milwaukee softball is a joke, not one sanctioned tournament anywhere to be found. Hi Guys, Illinois is not that great. We may see some tournaments with big numbers but they are usually NIT's or State Championships. Mostly their qualifiers are 4 or 5 teams. Also I watch SeriousSoftball.com and all they do down in Illinois is complain about all of the State Directors. Wisconsin is very calm in that regard. I was thinking it might be the economy but I was talking to the Indiana State Director and he says his numbers are up. I know that Illinois NSA has picked up a lot of parks down there. So I am as bewildered as you guys are. Brandon, I will look forward to seeingyouon the 31st. Make sure we get a chance to talk one on one. Jim
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Post by player24 on Jul 14, 2011 18:59:14 GMT -5
teams dont play sactioned ball for many reasons from what i can see. is it the payouts probably. in milw most teams cant play a weekend with there own players everyone plays with other teams every weekend. teams pick up better players from other teams for sundays when the money is on the line. ie travis clarks of the world sorry brandon just using that as an example. its rare that teams play with there own players. ka does 99% of the time so im not knocking u guys i respect that u guys play and travel. and really u need to buy grown men trophies and stuff. what so u can go home and show it to your wife or what ever or show it off on facebook . it will end up in a box in storage anyway .... just my 2 cents
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Post by jimvalentine on Jul 14, 2011 19:03:43 GMT -5
Surgy4 wrote: I wasn't just referring to Nsa. I have played 2 Isa tournaments down in Cystal lake that had 18 teams and 17 teams I believe each weekend. They have 20 teams for there Nsa C state this weekend it says on Serioussoftball.com.. I will be surprised if 8-10 show up in Wisconsin. Where else is Nsa played rather then Lumpys? I am curious, it is in the SE part of state there is no wonder you don't get teams driving 3-4 hours to come play. The talent is there is Wisconsin, but like I said there is no where to show it off. Milwaukee softball is a joke, not one sanctioned tournament anywhere to be found. ************* I understand that you were not referring to just NSA. I was trying to contribute by talking about softball in general. I don't know what kind of tournament WSL ran in CL. If it wass like an NIT I would be correct. I have tried to run tournaments around the state. This year I scheduled a tournament in Medford and not one team signed up. We also have a park in New Richmond that is NSA sanctioned and we have trid t run tournaments every year to no avail. We tried Wirth Park in Brookfield a couple of years ago and did not get a good response. We tried again this year and had all kinds of problems with the Convention Bureau. So the basic question is still there. Why won't teams sign up for these tournaments? I think teams are afraid of signing up with an association. But there must be more? Jim
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Post by thefinalsay on Jul 14, 2011 19:20:02 GMT -5
I just moved to Madison last September and was surprised to see so little sanctioned softball, especially ASA. Couple of comments:
- I completely understand needing money to run a softball team but I can't believe how many teams run themselves like a business! It's always nice to win money for playing well but I thought we all played softball cuz we love it. It's not a job...My Outkast team from SD plays in at least 3 completely no payout tourneys a year - state, nationals and Fireman's - and those are the 3 most anticipated tourneys on the schedule! Once teams stop treating softball like a business venture, at least for a couple of weekends a year!, state tournament participation will increase. It would also help if teams from across Wisconsin took pride in winning their own state's championship....It is a big deal - for one year at least you are the best team within your division within your state. Pretty cool if you think about it
Prize money - My suggestion here would be go to some of the softball companies - Combat, Miken, Boombah, ShirtsNLogos, etc...-and try to put together prize packages. Many tourneys in MN do it that way and it works out well....
- Classifications for state tournaments. MN runs an open state and SD calls our highest state tournament Divison 1: both are essentially open to any level of team. This works out well for a couple of reasons 1) It provides a place to play for all teams to play regardless of national class 2) It allows a state association to move teams up divisons within a state without messing up their national classification. This second point is extremely valid since a team winning WI D shouldn't automatically be bumped up a level nationally but shouldn't be allowed to play the same level at state again. SD has about 12-14 teams in our Division 1 each year (pretty good when you consider the entire state has a population about half of Milwaukee metro!) and the teams range in class from B to D/E nationally. All compete - zero prize money by the way - for bragging rights and can still play their proper national level until they earn the right to move up.
I think an open or Division system would work extremely well in Wisconsin. Teams would move up within the Wisconsin system without forcing them to move up before they can compete at a national levels.
Just some outsiders thoughts on the subject. I have long wondered why we didn't see more Wisconsin teams at ASA nationals (the ones that did compete were usually very, very good) but now I know why.
FYI, each state's ASA association has a given number of national bids to award as they see fit for each class. It's usually based off the number of registered teams so the more teams that register for ASA (it's only $40!), the more bids WI ASA could award through state tournament play or to whomever calls them 1st to ask for it.....
Good luck to all teams playing state this weekend.
TheFinalsay out!!
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Post by sburgy4 on Jul 14, 2011 21:57:54 GMT -5
I was not trying to jump on you, sorry if I came across like that. I was just curious if there were any other parks around the state. I have no idea why more teams don't sign up then, my only idea would be to try and get some sanctioned leagues so these league teams that have some decent teams get to experience somewhat what tournament ball is like. That is why i enjoy playing league at Lumpy's when I can. I would love to have a complex around here sanctioned u-trip to get people interested in it again. From what everyone says, U-trip is far and away the best thing to play, but with nowhere for people from Wisconsin to play it anymore or learn the game it is hard (not impossible) for WI teams to compete at a national level, so whats the point in even playing. ************* I understand that you were not referring to just NSA. I was trying to contribute by talking about softball in general. I don't know what kind of tournament WSL ran in CL. If it wass like an NIT I would be correct. I have tried to run tournaments around the state. This year I scheduled a tournament in Medford and not one team signed up. We also have a park in New Richmond that is NSA sanctioned and we have trid t run tournaments every year to no avail. We tried Wirth Park in Brookfield a couple of years ago and did not get a good response. We tried again this year and had all kinds of problems with the Convention Bureau. So the basic question is still there. Why won't teams sign up for these tournaments? I think teams are afraid of signing up with an association. But there must be more? Jim
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gator
Junior Member
Venom/Corners Inn/JBL
Posts: 67
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Post by gator on Jul 15, 2011 0:11:36 GMT -5
Well hell i might as well throw my .02 in, haha. First let me start by saying i'm not trying to bash any association, but USSSA is by far where the best ball is played IMO. 200+ teams in the world tournament, Boom! I've told guys from my team for a few years now, if i didn't run a team and had the time i would seriously consider inquiring about being the utrip director for the state of WI. WI needs utrip! Again, i'm not knocking Jim or anybody, it's apparently just the way utrip has their system set up.
The reason i believe you see so many more teams playing sanctioned ball in IL, is with utrip for example, they hold numerous qualifiers to acquire both paid and unpaid state, national and world berths. Class D can't even get into the state tournament without earning a berth in a qualifier or through your league and i have never participated in a Northern Utrip D State with less than 60 teams! As Brandon said, between the $275 + $50 sanction fee and hotels, we are going to spend over $1000 just to play in the state tournament, which is our one and only shot at earning a national berth!
ASA needs to hold sanctioned qualifiers throughout the summer all around the state, not just in certain places as everybody can't drive 3-4 hours and spend $1000 just to play a qualifier. In those qualifiers give away some paid and unpaid state and national berths. I don't see why the governing ASA body wouldn't do this if it created more interest around the state in their association. Teams winning paid berths would save the $275 entry for state or $325 for nationals, making it easier to participate in these tournaments. Just do like utrip and nsa do, if you earn a national berth, paid or unpaid, you have to participate in the state tournament to keep the berth or it passes down to the next team, etc...
Don't get me wrong, utrip is expensive to play. If you earn a world berth you have to play a NIT, State, Nationals and 2 other tournaments just to keep that world berth, but that is another reason they are able to have such a high participation rate. IMO They also have a points system which awards a world berth to the team with the most points after the state tournament is completed.
NSA needs more tournaments. I like NSA ball, however they just don't hold enough tournaments. And because of the location where most of the NSA tournies are held, they don't seem to get any participation. Class C only has 1 or 2 chances to play a NSA sanctioned tourney in SE WI before state and a lot of times those tournaments are canceled due to not enough teams. NSA should also look into giving away paid berths. We won a B/C NIT in Rockford which won us a Super World Berth in Vegas, but we had to send $350 to NSA to pay for that berth. We will get $450 for "travel" money once we get to vegas, but had to come up with the $350 within like 14 days. Not all teams are fortunate enough to have the money to do that.
We may play NSA next year, but i can almost for sure say this will probably be the 5th and final year of Venom participating in ASA, in WI anyway. The only reason we came back this year is because after finishing 2nd 3 out of the last 4 years between D and C, i know that makes us the Buffalo Bills of softball, haha, i wanted to take one last shot and winning one. Next year we are going to play a Utrip schedule and possibly mix in some NSA and cash tournies.
One last thing, i believe all associations should take a look at how utrip ran the bat testing down in Joliet when the Major tournament was there. I know it was a Major tourney, but it was a great idea, IMO. They had a bucket for every team and all the bats that passed testing were kept in that teams bucket. You didn't get to see your bat again until game time or when you were knocked out of the tourney. When it was your game time, the umpires would bring your teams bucket with all your bats to the field and set them against the back stop between home plate and the dug out. You couldn't even take your bat back to your dug out, it had to be put back in the bucket until your next at bat. Once your game was over the umpires took the bucket and it was held until your next game time. I thought that was a great idea and would like to see that done by all associations at the "bigger" sanctioned tournaments.
Sorry for the book, i been known to ramble! ;D
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Post by cwall282 on Jul 15, 2011 7:46:32 GMT -5
I read this whole thing and now I am kind of pissed. To answer a few posts on here. Disher is full of it. All of the ASA guys say so. They are not paying for the umps to stay in Point. If they are, they are idiots they could easily use the ASA umps from Wausau, who live like a half hour away. As far for NSA I would love to play in the NSA state tourney to bad its 5 hours away and would never be able to get my guys to travel to it, so I would have to pay another roster fee when I got there. Run that thing some where in Madison where ther are a ton of hotel rooms and you would have access to about a hundred teams that you could hit up to play. I realise you live close to Lumpy's but you are way out of a centeral location, which is hurting you especially in the North. Third to the guy complaing about teams in WI being run like businesses they have to be. I got sponsers crawling up my ass every week for not getting there names out there enough. I am sorry but I am 1 guy of 12 and the only one that is married with kids. Do you know how hard it is to get guys rounded up to play in a tournament much less one every weekend like these sponsers want. Not to mention I get the old "oh we are only sponsering half this time" when I go to pick up the entry fee, great now I have about 2 days to find the other half. So we have to run it like a business to cover our ass for crap like that.
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Post by bgraser12 on Jul 15, 2011 9:08:20 GMT -5
I think what needs to happen is all the guys who are writing on this thread need to be able to get OTHER teams to play. However we have to do that. I can think of teams that from around here got to WSL bash for cash in MARCH but won't play a sanctioned tourny around here in July. What the heck is wrong with that picture? Wisconsin has to improve. We all have to do something. Its as much the directors faults as it is the players and the lack of players. I will try to have my early bird next year be a sanctioned tourny in some shape with a paid birth to the state tourny. I've been lucky enough to draw 18-26 teams the past 3 years. I would love to have more teams come down for it. I know there will never be a great spot for a state tournament some teams are going to have to drive, thats just life we live in a state that has teams from all over, lets get out and play and make this states softball better so that when we go to worlds we dont' get smashed.
Jim - I will gladly chat with you on the 31st.
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Post by jimvalentine on Jul 15, 2011 9:32:55 GMT -5
cwall282
You are right. I live down in the SE corner of the state. Bad Luck I guess. Every time I try to run a tournament in any part of the State I usually have a ballplayer who is willing to do some leg work for me. If someone around Madison would have stepped up I would have tried there. I have also been up to Green Bay and Ashwaubenon with no luck. I have tried Eau Claire, 3 years in a row, with no luck.
But Madison is not 5 hours away so I am a little perplexed about where you are at. One of the other problem is that there doesn't seem to be any decent parks around. When I say decent I mean at least 4 diamonds in decent condition, with lights and good management.
I was even at Loggers but had problems with him. Every year I try to run Minn/Wis State Championships in New Richmond , up near Minneapolis but I have a hard time finding anyone to run the tournament.
I have tried everything I can think of and I have listened to ideas and tried them. I have not made any money any year. I lose money every year. I have done this because I love the game and I have been trying to give back. But it just doesn't seem to be appreciated.
It seems that I am being stonewalled by another group who is constantly working against me and that is not fair to the ballplayers of Wisconsin, or to me.
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Post by barrel21 on Jul 15, 2011 9:36:06 GMT -5
In response to some of what has been said in this thread.
At the ASA State Tournament, there is a UIC that picks the umpires to work the tournament. He selects guys from all over the state and does not just use the local umpires we already have in place at the park. This year there are 5 umps and the UIC from out of the area, and thus they are provided hotel accomodations, per ASA guidelines.
As far as running a team like a business. I think all managers out there have to take this approach. It is not cheap to play ball, from league fees to tournament entry fees and uniforms, my team spends $1000's every summer to play a recreation sport. Our team has been fortunate enough to have many of our sponsors return from year to year, and we are still looking to add more every year.
It would be nice to have corporate sponsors back several tournaments, but with that, someone has to put in the leg work to attract this type of opportunity. Who wants to step up to the plate and take on this task?? Most of the powers-that-be with WASA have regular jobs, leaving them with limitted time to take on many of the extras that go into running the softball organization.
Having several sanctions in WI would be great!! The only drawback that I see with having Utrip, ASA and NSA all in WI, is they all have slightly different rules and regs. Bats are different, so a team has to have sticks for different sanctions. The balls are different, which is an added expense. I for one would welcome the opportunity to play more than ASA, but I can't say that would be the concensus around the state.
Really, I feel that all of the concerns raised revolve around money. Where do we find it? What do payouts at tournaments need to be to draw a lot of teams? What is the right answer?
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Post by bigdobie on Jul 15, 2011 10:52:36 GMT -5
The problem in this state is that everyone would rather play for a payout rather than for the competition aspect. Look at the Fireman's tournament in Minnesota. The TD has to put a date on when new teams can start calling to get in if it isn't already full to the teams that played in previous years and he still ends up turning a lot of teams away. His phone is ringing off the hook starting at midnight on that date. There are 160 teams this year and they are looking forward to the competition, not the payout. Here is the payout for all the divisions of play at the fireman's.
First Place – All Divisions $200 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy Second Place – All Divisions $150 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy
And yet somehow this tournament always fills up fast and has for many years. It always draws some of the best teams from around the country.
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Post by thefinalsay on Jul 15, 2011 11:16:40 GMT -5
The problem in this state is that everyone would rather play for a payout rather than for the competition aspect. Look at the Fireman's tournament in Minnesota. The TD has to put a date on when new teams can start calling to get in if it isn't already full to the teams that played in previous years and he still ends up turning a lot of teams away. His phone is ringing off the hook starting at midnight on that date. There are 160 teams this year and they are looking forward to the competition, not the payout. Here is the payout for all the divisions of play at the fireman's. First Place – All Divisions $200 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy Second Place – All Divisions $150 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy And yet somehow this tournament always fills up fast and has for many years. It always draws some of the best teams from around the country. This is exactly what I'm talking about! I have never seen a state who is more obsessed with the payout of tournaments...hence the term 'business'. I'm fully aware softball can be an expensive hobby - my squad also spends thousands of dollars every summer -but so can golf, fishing, camping etc and I don't see to many guys expecting sponsors to cover their expenses or huge payouts for tournaments for most of these either. I'm not 'complaining' about managers treating softball like a business, just observing how it affects softball in Wisconsin. Half the posts on this site are about payouts; few are about how a weekend should be a great time due to competition and fun regardless of payouts. I'm leaving town later today to play at Fireman's, gonna be a 4 hour drive from Madison and I'm paying for my own gas money. My uniform, hotel and entry fee are covered by either our sponsor or our fundraising efforts. In 3 weeks I will be driving all the way back to South Dakota to compete for a state title with a bunch of my best friends and against a bunch of them. Winner gets to brag for a year....again, paying gas out of my own pocket. I do it cuz I love to play ball, not cuz it's a business (And yes for those of you wondering, I run my own squad so I'm in charge of getting sponsors and keeping them happy) Until teams in Wisconsin would rather play for fun/pride/bragging rights and the occasional nice payday than just the biggest payday, I don't think ANY association is going to really take off... TheFinalSay out!!
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Post by sburgy4 on Jul 15, 2011 11:21:28 GMT -5
You're smartest guy on here. The problem in this state is that everyone would rather play for a payout rather than for the competition aspect. Look at the Fireman's tournament in Minnesota. The TD has to put a date on when new teams can start calling to get in if it isn't already full to the teams that played in previous years and he still ends up turning a lot of teams away. His phone is ringing off the hook starting at midnight on that date. There are 160 teams this year and they are looking forward to the competition, not the payout. Here is the payout for all the divisions of play at the fireman's. First Place – All Divisions $200 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy Second Place – All Divisions $150 Expense/Travel Allowance and Trophy And yet somehow this tournament always fills up fast and has for many years. It always draws some of the best teams from around the country. This is exactly what I'm talking about! I have never seen a state who is more obsessed with the payout of tournaments...hence the term 'business'. I'm fully aware softball can be an expensive hobby - my squad also spends thousands of dollars every summer -but so can golf, fishing, camping etc and I don't see to many guys expecting sponsors to cover their expenses or huge payouts for tournaments for most of these either. I'm not 'complaining' about managers treating softball like a business, just observing how it affects softball in Wisconsin. Half the posts on this site are about payouts; few are about how a weekend should be a great time due to competition and fun regardless of payouts. I'm leaving town later today to play at Fireman's, gonna be a 4 hour drive from Madison and I'm paying for my own gas money. My uniform, hotel and entry fee are covered by either our sponsor or our fundraising efforts. In 3 weeks I will be driving all the way back to South Dakota to compete for a state title with a bunch of my best friends and against a bunch of them. Winner gets to brag for a year....again, paying gas out of my own pocket. I do it cuz I love to play ball, not cuz it's a business (And yes for those of you wondering, I run my own squad so I'm in charge of getting sponsors and keeping them happy) Until teams in Wisconsin would rather play for fun/pride/bragging rights and the occasional nice payday than just the biggest payday, I don't think ANY association is going to really take off... TheFinalSay out!!
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